Was theLDS Jesus born of the Virgin Mary (1 views) Subscribe   
  From:  Blood_Bought (RFI1965)   7/10/2001 1:43 am  
To:  ALL   (1 of 8)  
 
  118.1  
 
The Bible teaches that Jesus was born of the virgin Mary. This means that Mary had no sexual relations with any man prior to the birth of Jesus. 
Likewise, the Mormon church also maintains that Jesus was born of the Virgin Mary. However, there is quite an interesting array of Mormon authorities who have said some very interesting things about the relationship between God and Mary in regards to Jesus birth. Lets take a look at some of them and see what we find. 
Brigham Young, second prophet and president of the LDS church said, 
"The birth of the Saviour was as natural as are the births of our children; it was the result of natural action. He partook of flesh and bloodwas begotten of his Father, as we were of our fathers." (Journal of Discourses, v. 8, p. 115). 

Brigham Young also said, "Now, remember from this time forth, and for ever, that Jesus Christ was not begotten by the Holy Ghost." (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 1, page 51). 

Brigham Young said, "When the time came that His first-born, the Saviour, should come into the world and take a tabernacle, the Father came Himself and favoured that spirit with a tabernacle instead of letting any other man do it. The Saviour was begotten by the Father of His spirit, by the same Being who is the Father of our spirits." (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 4, page 218, 1857.) 

Joseph Fielding Smith, stated: 

"The birth of the Savior was a natural occurrence unattended with any degree of mysticism, and the Father God was the literal parent of Jesus in the flesh as well as in the spirit." (Religious Truths Defined, p. 44) as cited in the book, Mormonism: Shadow or Reality, by Gerald and Sandra Tanner, Utah Lighthouse Ministry, P.O. Box 1854, Sal Lake City, Utah 84110, Bookstore at 1350 South West Temple. 1982, page 260). 

Joseph Fielding Smith said, "They tell us the Book of Mormon states that Jesus was begotten of the Holy Ghost. I challenge that statement. The Book of Mormon teaches no such thing! Neither does the Bible." (Doctrines of Salvation, Vol. 1, page 19) 

Bruce McConkie, who was a member of the First Council of the Seventy stated, 

"Christ was begotten by an Immortal Father in the same way that mortal men are begotten by mortal fathers," (Mormon Doctrine, 1966, page 547.) 

"And Christ was born into the world as the literal Son of this Holy Being; he was born in the same personal, real, and literal sense that any mortal son is born to a mortal father. There is nothing figurative about his paternity; he was begotten, conceived and born in the normal and natural course of events,...Christ is the Son of Man, meaning that his Father (the Eternal God!) is a Holy Man." (Mormon Doctrine, by Bruce McConkie, page 742.) 

Heber C. Kimball who was a member of the first presidency said, 

"In relation to the way in which I look upon the works of God and his creatures, I will say that I was naturally begotten; so was my father, and also my saviour Jesus Christ. According to the Scriptures, he is the first begotten of his father in the flesh, and there was nothing unnatural about it." (Journal of Discourses, v. 8, p. 211) 

"The man Joseph, the husband of Mary, did not, that we know of, have more than one wife, but Mary the wife of Joseph had another husband" (Deseret News, October 10, 1866) as cited in the book, Mormonism: Shadow or Reality, by Gerald and Sandra Tanner, Utah Lighthouse Ministry, P.O. Box 1854, Sal Lake City, Utah 84110, Bookstore at 1350 South West Temple. 1982, page 261. 

What conclusions can we draw from the words of the leaders of the Mormon church regarding Jesus birth? 

It was the result of natural action, (Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, v. 8, p. 115). 
Jesus was not begotten by the Holy Ghost." (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 1, page 51); (Doctrines of Salvation, Vol. 1, page 19). 
"The Father came Himself and favoured that spirit with a tabernacle instead of letting any other man do it" (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 4, page 218, 1857.) 
The birth was the result of natural action, (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 8, p. 115). 
"The Father God was the literal parent of Jesus in the flesh as well as in the spirit." (Religious Truths Defined, p. 44) 
"Christ was begotten by an Immortal Father in the same way that mortal men are begotten by mortal fathers," (Mormon Doctrine, 1966, page 547.) 
"There is nothing figurative about his [Jesus] paternity; he was begotten, conceived and born in the normal and natural course of events" (Mormon Doctrine, by Bruce McConkie, page 742.) 
Remember, according to Mormon teaching the Holy Ghost is a male personage, a man. (A Marvelous Work and a Wonder, by Le Grand Richards, Salt Lake City, 1956, page 118; Heber C. Kimball, in Journal of Discourses, Vol. 5, page 179.) 
The Father, who is God, is also in the form of a man (Joseph Smith, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 6, p. 3; and Doctrine and Covenants, 130:22. 
Mary, of course, was a woman. 
This is even more interesting when we realize that the Mormon church officially proclaims that Jesus was born of a virgin. For example, Bruce McConkie stated "Modernistic teachings denying the virgin birth are utterly and completely apostate and false." (Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, page 822.) That is fine. Let them proclaim it. But quite honestly, I fail to see how the Mormon people can assert that Mary remained a virgin in light of this evidence from their prophets and apostles. I see them saying two different things and backpedaling trying to sound Christian. 
Of course, this is my opinion and the Mormons who read this will accuse me of sensationalism. But, I am simply pointing out what many of their official church leaders have said. In the changing teachings of Mormonism, you never know what you'll find next. 

__________________ 

Bibliography: 

Doctrines of Salvation, Vol. 1,by Joseph Fielding Smith, Bookcraft, Salt Lake City, Utah, 1954. 
Mormon Doctrine, by Bruce R. McConkie, 2nd Edition, Bookcraft, Salt Lake City, Utah, 1979 
A Marvelous Work and a Wonder, by LeGrand Richards, Deseret Book Company, Salt Lake City, Utah, 1950 
Mormonism: Shadow or Reality, by Gerald and Sandra Tanner,Utah Lighthouse Ministry, P.O. Box 1854, Sal Lake City, Utah 84110, Bookstore at 1350 South West Temple. 1982, 
Where Does it Say That? By Bob Witte, (No publisher or location). 

www.carm.org 
Copyright by Matthew J. Slick, 1998 

 
  
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  From:  Bob Blaylock (Bob_Blaylock)   7/10/2001 8:07 am  
To:  Blood_Bought (RFI1965)   (2 of 8)  
 
  118.2 in reply to 118.1  
 
  My response to this is to say that it is, and has always been, so far as I know, the true doctrine of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, that Mary was a virgin at the time Jesus was born, and that she had not, up to that time, engaged in any physical sexual relations of any kind, that it was through the power of the Holy Ghost that she conceived Jesus, just as is written in the Bible.  I would say further that where you have quotes which appear to be from LDS leaders saying otherwise, that either the person being quoted was mistaken (even prophets are human and capable of error) or else misquoted.

  I note that a preponderance of your quotes are from The Journal of Discourses, which is regarded as a particularly unreliable source.  I note, also, that you have two contradictory quotes by Bruce R. McConkie, which indicates either that he was misquoted in at least one instance, or else he couldn't make up his own mind on the subject.  (I would find the latter possibility more likely.  McConckie was a very opinionated man, prone, at times, to some very odd opinions, but he was anything but wishy-washy.)



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  From:  Blood_Bought (RFI1965)   7/10/2001 12:22 pm  
To:  Bob Blaylock (Bob_Blaylock)   (3 of 8)  
 
  118.3 in reply to 118.2  
 
So what your saying is that Mormonism was founded by flakes? 




In the name of Yeshua haMashiach,
God bless you,
Russ

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  From:  Bob Blaylock (Bob_Blaylock)   7/10/2001 10:45 pm  
To:  Blood_Bought (RFI1965)   (4 of 8)  
 
  118.4 in reply to 118.3  
 
Blood_Bought wrote:
So what your saying is that Mormonism was founded by flakes?
  I don't see where you're getting this.  What have I written that can be construed as, Mormonism was founded by flakes?



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  From:  Blood_Bought (RFI1965)   7/10/2001 10:53 pm  
To:  Bob Blaylock (Bob_Blaylock)   (5 of 8)  
 
  118.5 in reply to 118.4  
 
It would appear that even your faith's founders cannot agree on doctrine.



In the name of Yeshua haMashiach,
God bless you,
Russ

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And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.
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  From:  Bob Blaylock (Bob_Blaylock)   7/10/2001 11:29 pm  
To:  Blood_Bought (RFI1965)   (6 of 8)  
 
  118.6 in reply to 118.1  
 
  I have a few additional thoughts and clarifications.  First of all, in response to this:
But, I am simply pointing out what many of their official church leaders have said. In the changing teachings of Mormonism, you never know what you'll find next.
  Our official church leaders are, like all other human beings, endowed by their creator with the capacity for independent thought, and the ability and the right to form and to express opinions of their own accord.  Their status as official church leaders does not mean that their opinions automatically carry the weight of doctrine.

  By way of anology, I am fairly sure that I have heard, from time to time, of Catholic bishops, and perhaps even a cardinal or two, expressing opinions on such controversial subjects as contraception, the requirement for priests to remain celibate, the treatment of homosexuals, and such, that are not in accordance with the official doctrines and teachings of the Catholic church.  Yet I have never heard it claimed that because Bishop So-and-So or Cardinal Such-and-Such says This And That, that This And That is obviously official Catholic doctrine.  I think everyone recognizes that to make such a claim would be incorrect.  Even the Pope, himself, is allowed to express opinions, outside of his role as leader of the Catholic church, without his every word being required to be accepted as official doctrine.  Only when he is speaking Ex-Cathedra, do the Pope's words mean anything more than his own opinion.

  I think we would all agree that this is the correct standard to which to hold any statements made by Catholic officials.

  Yet this is not the standard you apply when discussing the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.  This entire thread is built upon a false depiction of LDS doctrine, painted by the opinions expressed by various men who have been leaders in this church.  When I get into some of your other threads, I have little doubt that I will find the same error there as well.

  Now, having said this, and hopefully having made it clear that I do not regard the opinions of Bruce R. McConkie as definitive of LDS doctrine, or, for that matter, as really being definitive of anything more than the opinions of Bruce R. McConkie, I have further commentary on your use of quotes from his ill-titled book.  You have quoted several passages from him, which can be interpreted as implying that Christ was conceived as a result of a physical sexual act, but which do not explicitly say so, and which you have so interpreted.  You then quote another passage from him in which he says, clearly, and unequivocally, states that Modernistic teachings denying the virgin birth are utterly and completely apostate and false.  All these quotes are, in fact, from the same book.  I think it is clear that one of two things must be true:
McConkie did not mean, by any of his other quotes, to say that Jesus was conceived as a result of a physical, sexual act, and your intrepretation of these quotes is incorrect.
or

McConkie was utterly mad, and unable to keep straight what he believed about the manner of Christ's conception.
  I believe that if you were to read through an actual copy of McConkie's book, you would find that, regardless of whether you agree with his opinions, that they are, at least, generally consistent and well-thought-out, not at all indicative of the second possibility enumerated above.  I think you must admit that those quotes which you interpret as meaning that Chrst was convceived via a physical sex act are sufficiently vague as to allow entirely different interpretations.  I think that McConkie most likely meant that by whatever undefined mechanism Jesus' conception was carried out, it resulted in God the Father's genetic material being united with Mary's, with much the same results as when we mortals combine genetic material through the act of sexual intimacy.  This says nothing of how this was accomplished.

  I note that similar interpretations would fit most of the other statements you have qoted by other church leaders.  So really, in order to make your point, you have taken statements which are not authoritative, and you have forced upon these statements, meanings which most likely are not the meanings that these statements were meant to communicate.  Further compromising what little strength your point might have remaining, you've drawn upon The Journal of Discourses, a very unreliable source, for statements attributed to Brigham Young.



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  From:  Blood_Bought (RFI1965)   7/10/2001 11:33 pm  
To:  Bob Blaylock (Bob_Blaylock)   (7 of 8)  
 
  118.7 in reply to 118.6  
 
When you say these things about the founders of Mormonism, don't you see how it simply tears the whole faith down? I'm also curious about what your feelings are about Brigham Young's racist attitudes.



In the name of Yeshua haMashiach,
God bless you,
Russ

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


 

 The
Spirit-Filled Christian
Forum  
Vsit My Family Website 
 
 

And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.
Luke 3:22
 Vsit My MINISTRY Website 
 
 

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   From:  David (DavidABrown)    7/10/2001 11:44 pm  
To:  Bob Blaylock (Bob_Blaylock)   (8 of 8)  
 
  118.8 in reply to 118.6  
 
Christians at times differ over Bible, Interpretation, and Application, but never over the Core Christian Belief of Jesus as God in the flesh and Always within the framework of the Bible. 
Mormons have Rejected Jesus, created their own religion and written their own works and have claimed their leaders to be prophets, priests and apostles. 

Are we not allowed to Examine the writings of the Mormons and the men that they have labeled as their founders and leaders? Or are we non-Mormons supposed to follow the Mormon teachings Blindly and Unquestionably as the Mormons are forced to do. 





David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
 
  
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